Wednesday, February 23, 2005

Keep Shaun or Trade Him?

I'm not one to stir up controversy, but there seems to be a growing discontent with retaining Shaun Alexander. Last time I checked our poll, 50% of you said we should trade him.

Some of the things that have been said: He doesn't block well. He doesn't catch well. Because of those two things, he doesn't fit into the West Coast Offense. He is also weak in short yardage situations, unless he's near the end zone. He is a selfish, me-first player. He dances in the backfield waiting for a hole, and often comes up with nothing.

I'd like to state my case for retaining Alexander.

I think if were not for him this season, this team would possibly be 6-10 or worse. When Hasselbeck was struggling early in the season, what brought him out of it? Holmgren himself said that he needed to "force feed" the run a little bit. He realized that the team was relying on the pass too much, and that defenders were teeing up and coming hard at Matt. By relying on the raw rushing threat that Alexander presented, teams were forced to back off of Hass and respect the run. This took the pressure off the QB and opened up lanes in the passing game.

I believe that was the key to the offense waking up this season. If you go back to the pregame analyses and check what the keys to the game of the opponents defense was, you will see that "controlling/containing/slowing/stopping Alexander" was their main concern. And when Shaun got 25-27 carries in a game, we usually came away with a win.

Bottom line is that, indirectly, Shaun is a good fit for the West Coast Offense. He makes Matt more effective, and that really is the key to the whole shebang, because he is the center of the entire scheme.

What about the conjecture that Shaun is a sissy back, afraid of contact, and lousy in short yardage?

I think those notions have merit, because there are better straight ahead runners. Jerome Bettis, for example, is a guy that will just as soon move the pile than even walk around it. Even Mack Strong would be a better candidate to run through a defender than Shaun. This may be why he gets the call on 3rd and short sometimes.

But I think this is old news. Around the time that these rumors and criticisms were coming out, (and I could see that they were true), I noticed a subtle change in the way that Shaun ran the ball. He was running harder. He was running into people more. And in short yardage he was ducking his head and plowing into the hole.

Now, I'm not saying that all of a sudden he was evoking the spirit of Larry Csonka, but I do think he and the coaches heard the scout's summations. He worked on it, at there was a definite improvement in the toughness of the running game form then on.

Shaun improved his pass blocking, too. He's still not as good as a lot of backs, but he went from completely missing assignments to at least making contact and slowing them up, generally speaking.

I've seen some critical postings that included quotes of scout's analyses ripping Alexander apart. But what I have noticed about these is they were from either before this season, or from the first part of it. The current reports I have seen pretty much validate what I see on the field: That he is great running back that has adequate secondary RB skills.

Here is a recent quote from Scout.com:

Shaun Alexander possesses all the physical tools, athletic ability, and toughness wanted in a running back. While not overly fast, he is exceptionally quick in a short area, sports great vision and anticipation, has the natural ability to cut and bounce to the outside, while displaying the ability to run the ball inside the tackles with consistency. Alexander has developed into a solid receiver out of the backfield and is adequate in pass protection. While not in the category of an elusive running back, it is his surprising quickness and authoritive running style which has made him one of the best backs in the game.


And that's why I think we should keep him. Any thoughts?

28 comments:

  1. I agree on the issues on defense, but we can do that without sacraficing Shaun.

    If we do this, in order of priority:

    1. Restructure Chad's contract
    2. Sign Lucas
    3. Sign Kendrall Bell of Jeremiah Trotter
    4. Sign Okeafor
    5. Draft Merriman in 1st round
    6. Draft a DE for depth in rounds 2-4

    I think this would pretty much take care of it.

    Then what to do about the WR situation? It really depends on how the cap situaltion unfolds.

    Mike, I think we need another miracle if you don't mind...

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  2. You're right-- 6.6 mil won't get us too far in the FA market.

    Check, your numbers just about make me want to issue a retraction!

    Nice job.

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  3. Which is why I think we need to restructure some contracts like Chad's.

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  4. First, thanks Blue for knocking my half-day old thread off the front page :P


    now about Shaun...

    he got 1700 rushing yards in a West Coast offense...thats just ridiculous...its hard for me to mention reasons to keep him other then the fact that when I got serious about football, I had to pick a favorite player...so I picked him...

    but if the right deal comes along, then trade him...i like Munch's trade idea, with the Dolphins, but its hard to tell if management is aggressive in pursuing trades, or laid back and listening to offers as they have done both the last few years...

    I really wouldn't like trading up into the draft unless we came out with Derrick Johnson...(being an outside LB...cut Chad Brown)

    I always thought Mo Morris was one of the better backups in the league but we still haven't seen enough to know whether he can fill in the starting role or not...

    if I had a choice, I would keep him...unless a great deal comes by...we shouldn't have to settle for 2nd tier players, Shaun Alexander was the best overall back last year---easy to find RBs or not, if we trade him, we shouldn't get screwed over---thats what im afraid of...expecting a pro bowl LB or DE sounds crazy, but we really should get something along the lines of that in a trade

    Miami needs a back...how about Jason Taylor?...TB needs a back...how about Shelton Quarles?...Oakland needs a back...how about...nevermind...

    getting a pick for him is too risky, as some people can become busts in the draft...I say an established, young---maybe pro bowl player, and nothing less...unless the pick is high enough to bring Derrick Johnson, of course...no reason to trade up unless we were after him, as there are plenty of good DEs and LBs and RBs that will fall to us

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  5. I rambled about this alot because I realize there is no real point of keeping Shaun...so im making up excuses...ha

    but we lost Griffey and Payton...I don't wanna part with another!!!

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  6. Well most of you know what I think of The Mighty Alexander, but I'd really like to know where that guy writing the article got his info, it wasn't from watching the S.A. I saw this last season, the guy is as inconsistant catching the ball as any HB out there, and the clincher.......he won't block! And a Back that won't block BITES!

    Trade him, and watch him set records somewhere else, as has been pointed out, it's about all he's good for. :)

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  7. Trade him if possible. That being said, to any team not in the NFC. SA is a great running back that doesn't fit into the system. What we need is a back like Faulk, like Westbrook. If only we had a guy like that on the roster right now... wait, we do, Morris is very similar to both backs. I think his time has come. If SA cannot be traded, then I think we need to alternate between them, let each take the ball, all three downs, and use the most effective. The biggest problem with that is that SA should not have to audition for a job, and he would certainly be mad. Best possible solution is for Miami to take a run at him, IMO. Nachos

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  8. I think it depends entirely on what we could get for him. Alexander is a very valuable back to us, but COULD be more valuable in a trade. So everything depends on what teams are willing to give up for him AND what we do in the free agency. I'm not trying to be wishy washy here I just don't know what team would offer what to get him. FOr the right deal I'd let him go, but I would only let him go if we could improve at three spots by doing so.
    Here's what I would do if I were GM. first, so far they have been perfect, by signing Jones, Hasselbeck and franchising Alexander. That is exactly what I have been hoping they would do all along. Now I would let everyone else, except Lucas go bye bye. THen I would take the money remaining under the cap and sign Turley and He Hate Me, and look around at what kind of deal is available for Alexander. If we get offered a deal that can help us at three positions, (Example a first round pick and two players, for Alexander) then I say we do it. Otherwise we go into the season as is playing with Alexander.

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  9. Keep him. Keep him. Keep him.

    I know that Vinny hates his blocking (although it seems to be based on one missed block more than anything else.)

    I know that he isn't a classic west coast offense back (but who out there is, and is proven, and is available?)

    I know that he costs a lot of money (Frankly, I think less now that we've franchised him than if we would have signed him to a deal).

    I know he's a bit of a prima donna (most of the great ones are)

    But he is the most productive player on our team. He is (in my opinion) the best player on our team. The "classic" WCO teams did pass a vast majority of the time. But they also had great receivers and great quarterbacks. We have a very good quarterback, (who while I'm ecstatic we kept him, is now overpaid) and a very unreliable set of receivers. If we get a well rounded back, we'd have to depend on our receivers more. And right now, I'm not willing to do that. Even should we get a Free agent or trade for a very good receiver. Who would have thought Rice would start dropping passes when he got here?

    My point is, Alexander is a premiere back in this league. His presence really doesn't detract from any other position on the field, he isn't a lockerroom cancer, and he is one of the main reasons our team is now a perrenial postseason participant, and a serious contender for the upper echelons of the league as it stands. I never say never, if some amazing deal came along and we had the chance to get some incredible value for him in a trade, then I'd agree to it. But for now, I wonder why it's even a discussion. We can afford him. Heck, we're getting a bargain basement deal in keeping him for only 6 million. To me, it seems obvious.

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  10. Sorry man, but a GREAT Back is a consistant Back, and S.A.s anything but consistant.

    Look at his game stats from last season. While yes, he had a huge total in TDs and Yds, his game to game totals are all over the board.

    And do I need to mention two fumbles at the ned of the season on the goal line? Or his absolutely maddening ablity to run around behind the line of scrimmage and lose two yds?

    How about his attitude? The great Backs ar enot Prima Donas dude, Sanders, Payton, Faulk none of these guys put themselves ahead of their team and pouted and whined about carries or TDs, they knew it's about the success of the TEAM not one player.

    And another thing, it's been mentioned here before but it bears repeating....He almost set the record last year but what did it gain the team?

    For this offense to be successful we need a back taht can fight for the short yards as well a blasting through a hole made by his line for the big gains.

    And that is Shaun in a nutshell.

    Anyone that has decent abilities and a lot of heart and fire can make the HB position work.

    Dillon is not a Superstar, nor is Westbrook, however these two helped their TEAMs to the S.B., if Alexander stays he needs to re-invent himself, change his style and adjust his ego. And most of all he needs to get possitive yards when they are needed!

    Sorry about the rant but some out here don't seem to get it, hwen it comes to Sahun and my objections to him.

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  11. Munch, about what you said in the first post, about Alexander playing for a big contract, and therefore he'll be trying harder.

    He was last season and he still couldn't get it done. He still blocked half heartedly (on more than ONE occasion), he still lacked skills as a reciever, and he still couldn't pick up third and short.

    So how would this season be any different, perhaps because he realizes he isn't the darling of the West Coast, or the NFL?

    And by the way, this isn't diected at you, Shaun's teh best player on the team!?!?!? What! Please, when it comes to doing their jobs well, there are at least six guys I can name that are better. Matt, Walter, Hutch, Boulware, Lucas, and Strong. These guys play their hardest and their best every game and every down.

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  12. Paulie, I also disagree with your' assessment of Matt, he's one of the top QBs in the game, and a season with some quality WRs will prove this out, I think he's top five calliber, he just needs the WRs to catch the ball.

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  13. Hass isn't top five. I love him, but there's no way I'd pick him above Peyton, Brady, Vick, Daunte, McNabb, McNair, and I'd have to debate his upsides against Leftwich, Palmer, and Pennington. not that I don't think he's great, I do, but we are paying him top three money right now. He isn't top three.

    It's funny you mention Shauns losing yards, then compare him with people like Barry. Barry was famous for losing yards, and busting big runs, the same as Shaun. I don't think Shaun is as good as Barry, but you can't tell me a back needs to be consistent and then use someone like Barry for your comparison.

    And we have discussed his up and down numbers before. We've also discussed how they directly relate to the number of times he's given the ball. If we give him the ball above a certain number of times, he performs very well. Below that, he doesn't do as well.

    Bottom line is a great back is one that performs great. And Shaun does that. He's not the same back as Bettis, or Payton, but no one is asking him to be. He scores tons of touchdowns, gains tons of yards, and wins games. Did he fumble twice when he shouldn't have? Yes. But that happens to everyone, heck, Matt has thrown interceptions that lead to losses, most notably in the playoffs last year. Does he feel like he doesn't get the respect he deserves? Yes, and I frankly agree with him. I think he goes about showing it incorrectly at times, but he is a premiere back. And should be looked upon as one. If he keeps his current pace, he will be a hall of famer. Doesn't he deserve recognition?

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  14. Shaun may not be consistent from game to game, but from year-to-year he very much is...

    his yards/td total in the last few years is the 2nd most consistent behind Holmes...his inconsistent games kinda reflect on the playcalling...notice when he runs right, he doesn't get too many yards, if any...obviously u can't run to the left the whole game, but still...

    which leads to another point...if Shaun left, it doesn't matter who we had at RB...our left side of the O-line is still dominant and will help anyone

    Shaun's lack of catching could be the Receiver's syndrome...im starting to think that Hasselbeck throws it too fast...amazing how we grab Jerry Rice...and he catches the drop disease, too

    in fairy land...I would love to see Shaun stay, put up 1700 yards and 15 TDs every year...but we fail to realize one key factor---would he play even if we didn't find a good deal to help us? then we're screwed

    lets hope he doesn't pressure management to the point that they have to make a hurtful trade---I want to see us get either a great (5 out of 5) DE, or a good (4 out of 5) MIDDLE LB...hopefully Shaun will be patient

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  15. One question ADP, how many S.B.s have Shaun and Preist been in? HB records don't mean much to anyonge but them and their fans.

    And you're right Shaun's numbers are consistant year to year. But again, his game to game stats in all those seasons are inconsistant. You need a HB to produce consistantly in every game. Whether its 70, 80, 90, or 100 yds, he needs to keep it consistant for the offense to perform properly.

    And yes, you may be right about Matt throwing fast (too soon) sometimes, he has to, due to the fact that he's got defenders in his face before he can even drop back. Not much time for your' receivers to get open if ya' ask me.

    Maybe we should work on getting a line together that can pass protect.

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  16. I agree...I think more importantly, if the pass protection needs to be tuned up a little...its obvious the right side is the target...

    what might you guys think Kyle Turley would cost?



    Vinny...the main reason why I want Alexander to stay is because I don't feel we could get a good enough deal without being ripped off...I doubt many teams would trade a Pro Bowl DE or a Good-to-Great LB for him...draft picks are the only other alternative...

    and besides, why waste a draft pick on a RB is we don't need one right now, ya know?...maybe if we somehow filled our other needs and got one in the 7th...but other then that, no real point

    basically, I don't mind what happens with Shaun, as long as we get a good deal for a GLARING need...I wish we could package him and K Rob up and trade them for Andre Johnson (I predict him to be the best WR by the end of next season), but right now...hes on our team...no point in worrying about RBs when we have other issues to deal with (LB, DE, Lucas, Okeafore, O Line)

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  17. ADP,
    Have you been reading my mind? It's kind of scary you pointing out the stupidity of using a high round pick to replace a top five back you already have, when that's exactly how I think as well, what's the point? Noone we get in free agency or through the draft is an upgrade over what we have, so why let him go? Makes no sense to anyone but Vinny.
    Also the fact that you mentioned Andre Johnson is kinda scary. I have been telling everyone I know, that I think he is about to become the best reciever in the game, if he already isn't. Andre Jonhson is the PERFECT reciever, with top end speed a big powerful frame and outstanding hands. He's the size of T.O. with the speed of Torry Holt, and the leaping ability of Randy Moss all rolled up into one. He is an amazing talent who I believe is a sure fire can't miss hall of famer, who if he gets a decent team around him will break all kinds of records before he's done.

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  18. Hmmmm...

    Steve Largent, No. 80
    Acquired from Houston

    Andre Johnson, No. 80
    Currently in Houston

    I THINK IT"S A SIGN!!! 8-O

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  19. Blue, for what we could get for S.A. (and his lousy blocking and inadequite catching ability) I'm thinking anything would be an upgrade, after all, there are several HBs out there that would fill the spot and produce well behind our line. Then we could trade him for a first round pick and maybe a bada** defensive player.

    Sometimes it's about what you can get (a first round pick and an upgrade trade)

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  20. well monkey, great minds think alike

    I dunno if thats an insult to me for comparing myself with the mind of a monkey or a compliment to you :P

    yup...andre johnson is the prototype of a receiver...if he came to Seattle, his possible career would be ruined...he too, will catch the Drop Syndrome (then again, he is special)

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  21. Vinny, I really don't mean to keep harping at you, but some of your comments don't make sense.
    Consider the fact that you on one hand criticise our O line for their lack of blocking skills, then you turn around and say that anyone would be an upgrade over Alexander because of our great O line. Can't have it both ways Vinny, either they are a great line or they are not. THe truth is, from the center over to the left tackle they are great, the right side sucks.
    Also Vinny, you keep talking aobut how you don't want to bring in innexperience on the Dline, but you have no problem bring in inexperience at RB or just about anywhere else on offense. THis too makes no sense, as the D line is by far and away the easiest position to learn and for a rookie to make an impact at. Just look at all the rookie DE's who have made huge splashes over the last tem years.
    Also, you are the only person I have ever heard say that Alexander isn't worth much, the Eagles are trying to find a way to get him and they already have two RB's. They feel that Alexander would be a huge upgrade over Westbrook and sorry Vinny, but they know alot more about that sort of thing than you or I do. If the Eagles think Alex is a big upgrade over Westbrook, then how can you say otherwise?

    Sorry Vinny, I think your hatred of Alexander has clouded your thinking to the point where you are simply being illogical and unrealistic.

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  22. Why can't a O-line suck at pass protection and excell at run blocking? Aren't these two different disciplines?

    If not why bother rating players in their abilities at both skills?

    I stand by my statements. Our line is still mediocre at best at pass protection, but from the Center to the Left Tackle we can make a hole big enough to drive a Semi through, and we have probably one of teh top three Run blocking FBs in the game.

    I never said anything about getting an inexperienced HB, I have been fighting the drafting of anyone save maybe a MLB or DE as a potential starter.

    And as for the Eagles and their lust for S.A., maybe their personnell guy's a boob! We'll se how coveted he is in another week or so, and if he's as good as yo say he is he should bring a hefty trade value right. So where's the downside to trading him?

    Hope this clarifies things a little. :)

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  23. Bottom line on Shaun is that he's not a team player, he's not physically tough, and is a mediocre receiver.

    I want a HB that 1) Is not afraid to hit the line and go shoulder to shoulder against a tackler, and a HB that puts his bodt on the line to pass protect. Not to mention someone we don't have to pull out of the lineup on passing downs and short yardage situations.

    These are all knocks on S.A., and his style of play just doesn't fit into our game.

    If he stays he'll have to fix these problems or the offense will struggle again this season.

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  24. Shaun and the left side of the line carried this team when MATT was struggling, and he improved his blocking skills and running style.

    To be honest, he's a lot harder to tackle in short yardage than Mo Morris. I could probably count on one hand the number of times he's broken a tackle.

    If he's here next season, I look forward to SA proving you wrong. I'm going to make note of the plays he protected Matt and also the plays he fought for tough yardage. He's improved his game, I tell you, and I intend to prove it with evidence. ;)

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  25. If your' take on his short yardage performance is true then number one, why did they go to Matt on the TD? And why did they pull him on short yardage downs?

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  26. 1) Should Shaun get the ball EVERY TIME we are near the goal line? To point to a single specific instance where he didn't get the ball, i.e., the last play, as evidence that he stinks in short yardage is just silly.

    2) Mack Strong is an excellent short yardage runner, perhaps better than Alexander. If he's more apt to get the 1st down, then he should be in there. But there's no question that Shaun is a better RB than Mack. It's all about situations.

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  27. Why not get a guy that can get the short yards too? Then the other team doesn't know who's getting the ball, instead of teh obvious, it seems to me the other teams knew that S.A. isn't a short yardage guy and therefore keyed on the carrier.

    Why wouldn't we rather have a guy that can do both?

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  28. And if I'm wrong about my assessment of Alexander then the rest of you have nothing to worry about as far as losing him. So actually it's all a moot point.

    And with that I'll say I give, you're right Alexander's the best back we can get.

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