ADP opened the topic (tongue-in-cheek) in his award thread, and it's an issue that I'm sure a lot of us have opinions on, so I thought this worthy of our blog, even though it doesn't directly effect our team.I wanted to post this below the Awards too, so as not to steal the headling with thiis somewhat-off-topic item.
How do you feel about Indian/Native American team nicknames in general, and with the NCAA's recent directive banishing team logos and mascots from appearing during post season play?
I can really see both sides of this issue. On one hand, you have a major corporation with millions of dollars invested in brand recognition and "product" loyalty.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, you have people. Real, live, breathing, thinking, feeling human beings who are being used as icons, and in may cases, satirical icons for sport teams.
Add to that the sins of the past, and you can understand how unsavory it has got to be for members of native american tribes to see images such as Chief Wahoo and the Tomahawk Chop.
I'll spare the comparisons to the New York Negros or the Jersey City Jews, or Pittsburgh Pollacks, as I think the answer is much more simple than that.
JUST CHANGE THE DAMN TEAM NAMES!
Borrowing from the Native Americans, unless you walk a mile in their shoes, none of us can really know how it feels to see your proud heritage distilled into gimmicks and gizmos to sell tickets to a sporting event.
Teams have changed their nicknames and survived. Teams regularly change their logos, color schemes, and cities, and have survived. This isn't much different.
The argument that the team nickname is "drawing from the courage and pride of the native american, and so should be taken as a compliment rather tnan an insult" doesn't hold water either.
After what this country went through in the 50s and 60s to end segregation, it's an embarrassment to the entire country that the NFL franchise in our nation's capital is named the Redskins.
I feel they missed the best opportunity in the 80s when the offensive line was nicknamed "the Hogs". The could have easily changed the team name to The Washington Hogs and not had any drop off in fan loyalty. (and given the amount of pork-belly legislation running through Congress, the name is probably more fitting - - not to mention a certain ex-President's choice in beret wearing interns!)
Anyhow, here's the bleeding heart northeast liberal weighing in on the issue.
What's your opinion?
I agree on the Redskins, not on the Indians, Braves, Seminoles, Aztecs, etc. Redskins is a slur.
ReplyDeleteIf you are going to apply "see your proud heritage distilled into gimmicks and gizmos to sell tickets to a sporting event " to the natives, you'd have to say the same about many teams, Fighting Irish with the leprechaun, folk with tar on their shoes, steel workers, Ben Franklin and his homeys, those who pack and do packing related activities, really good catholics, pirates (in several leagues, 2 in the NFL) knights of various color, trojans, spartans, etc.
The only way to truly get rid of this is to name all teams after animals (but then PETA will get pissed, you know they would, they probably are already) or inanimate things, hurricanes and other inclement weather systems (GO Upper Level Low Pressure Zones!!!) and rocks and stuff.
Gregg Easterbrook used to have a pretty funny and pointed ongoing discussion about this in his TMQ column. He called them the Cheasepeak Watershed Basin Indigneous Persons or something.
Posted by JoSCh
I'll give you "Fighting Irish", but the others are a stretch. Patriots, Packers, Steelers, Saints and Pirates are not races of people, and have direct and real relationships to the cities that use those nicknames.
ReplyDeleteIndians, Braves, Seminoles, Aztecs, have to be included, not because the name itself is offensive, but rather due to the images, slogans, gestures and fan costumes that they envoke.
While we're on this topic, someone will have to officially define what a Tar Heel and a Hoya really is!
Posted by alba
I dont really care about the issue...i care about the sensitivity...USA is supposed to be all tough in the World...yet they are so sensitive
ReplyDeleteWWE's 'Muhammed Hassan' character is a perfect example...he was somewhat offensive...but having tv shows like 'Over There' is way more offensive...yet noone cares about that (I think they hated Hassan because he was a bad guy...even though he was a great wrestler)
With the names...its just another one of those 'noone is wrong' things...I personally wanna see Florida St. get in trouble simply because im a Gator fan...other then that, I think this thing is stupid...
WHY NOW?
they've been around for years, and its just now offending people?
you cant blame this on 9/11...that excuse is over with now.
I do agree that Redskins is a slur, and that needs to be fixed...the others mentioned arent much of a problem
but like i had in my other post...the sarcasm about using the 'Funky Monkey' name...its stupid that this has become an issue
just change the names and be done with it
you want something to be offended about...how about taking Johnny Damon's fucking wedding photos off espn.com? I find it offensive that the Red Sox get special treatment
I can understand both points of view...but im on the 'no name change side'...simply because they just now get offended...however, if it becomes too big of an issue...then just change the names and uniforms or whatever...
im part cherokee, and i really could care less (probably because im not offended)
lets just hope we dont start offending Mariners and Seahawks
I've always thought that if the indians were offensive, the vikings would certainly have to be.
ReplyDeletePosted by PaulieP
I think the underlying problem is very multifaceted. Take the Washington Redskins themselves. Their team logo is not offensive in the slightest. However, their name is most definitely a racial slur. While the indians and the braves are the other way around. Their name on face value is not offensive, but the moaning to tomahawk chops and the goofily grinning indian on the baseball caps most certainly is. There certainly would be a way to have a team with a native american name to not be offensive and to actually be celebratory of their culture. Whether or not the fans would buy accept it however, would be rather difficult. You can't just tell the Braves crowd to stop moaning to the tomahawk chop.
ReplyDeletePosted by Gumbostu
i personally liked the tomahawk chop back in their playoff days BEFORE the Red Sox and Cubs got huge on the scene...back when things were---unbiased.
ReplyDeleteif they EVER changed that goofy Cleveland Indians logo...I will be one happy camper...
Posted by ADP
Yeah I actually like the tomahawk chop as well, but I do realize that it is awfully stereotypical, I would probably be sad if it went away...
ReplyDeletePosted by gumbostu
Look at it this way:
ReplyDeleteIf you CHANGE the names, then you stop offending a race of people, and since fans have such short memories by nature, in a few years it won't make a difference.
If you DON"T CHANGE the names, you make the team-owning fat-cats happy, since they don't have to shell out extra cash on a new name marketing program, and you appease died-in-the-wool fans (mostly red necked white guys) who can't see the problem with the names.
Seems like a fairly simple choice to me.
And I add Vikings to the same pile as Patriots, Steelers and Packers, and fighting Irish for that matter. Traditionally, these are all representative middle-class white populations who have not had to suffer generations of oppression and degradation, and so it's not the same issue.
And to the "why now?" question, that's the same thing they were asking about segregation in the 60s. Just because we've gotten away with it for this long doesn't mean it's not time to change it now.
Posted by alba
ESPN had a poll question yesterday regarding this issue, and 91% of the respondants were AGAINST changing the team names.
ReplyDeleteUNBELIEVABLE!
Sorry, belated props to "Upper Level Low Pressure Zones", indeed, that's funny stuff. I remember a similar skit on Sat. Night Live a bunch of years ago where the high school renamed its team by committee, and they came out being the "flaming manilla envelopes" or something like that. (and I hope I didn't offend any Phillipinos with the Manilla envelope crack!)
ReplyDeleteI'm 1/2 Irish, 1/2 Italian, married to a Jewish social worker and my children are adopted, one being African American-German-Irish-Native American mix, the other German-Italian. Not to mention I was a classic northeast bleeding heart liberal even BEFORE all this melting pot action!
And JoSCh - shame on you for having an opinion and NOT VOTING, especially since you're an ex-Military guy. You swore to protect and defend this nation at one time, don't you care enough now to participate in the electoral process.
In my view of things, if you don't vote, you have no right to express your opinions on the state of things. Even if your vote doesn't count (like Republicans in NY or Democrats in the heartland) you should cast your vote proudly, especially knowing what our forefathers had to do to provide us this right and privledge.
Not trying to jump on your shit here, just saying that apathy will erode the strength of this country faster than any foreign threat.
Posted by alba
Yes, saying I am almost libertarian was wrong, I am an apathist, which would be a party (and a religion probably) if one of us would get off our asses and start it. Stupid apathists.
ReplyDeleteShould I vote, maybe, but I joined the military to defend your and particularly my right to choose. I would vote on an issue I cared about, I am registered to vote. South Park has a good episode that summarizes my opinion, the "Giant douche vs. turd sandwich" episode. Recommended viewing.
And "flaming manilla envelopes " certainly offends homosexuals, filipinos, (particularly homosexual filipinos) and of course the beleagured packers.
Posted by JoSCh
I hear you. I started a support group for procrastinators but our first meeting keeps getting postponed!
ReplyDeletePosted by alba
You should change it a support group for apathetic procrastinators, then no one will care if the meetings get postponed....
ReplyDeletePosted by highwater
Not to restart the argument, but I'm actually with JoSCh in that I don't vote (at least not for president. I vote for everything else). It's my own silent protest against the electoral college, a system in which our votes truly don't count.
ReplyDeletePosted by PaulieP
Yeah, I know what you mean, one time I started an ADHD support group but I
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ReplyDeletePosted by abla