First, thank you for raising this topic for discussion before it becomes a problem. I think it'll be great to get everyone's input and see if we can reach some common ground.
While I think we need these standards and guidelines, I think they need to be very simply stated.
A. To quote Jim Rome, "Have a take and don't suck!"
B. To employ a guideline used by my college fraternity regarding pledging "you won't (shouldn't post) do anything you wouldn't do (post) in front of your mother"
C. If you don't think it would fly on late night Network TV (i.e. SLN, The Daily Show, MAD TV) it probably shouldn't be posted.
I am all for free speech and I am all for self-policing forums too, but you make a good point that if things get out of hand, the damage is usually already done before peers can pipe up and correct the problem.
So to directly answer your questions:
1. Target Audience: our main target audience is undoubtedly rabid Seahawks fans such as ourselves. That being said, everyone has different hot buttons, be it abjectifying women, bashing gays/lesbians, racial/ethnic slurs, etc. However, some stuff is just too funny to pass up.
I think we need to use Saturday Night Live, MAD TV and/or The Daily Show as our barometer. If it sounds like something you'd see here, then go for it. If it would be too racy for those shows, it probably should be omitted.
Same goes for the graphics used with your posts. Remember that a picture is worth 1000 words, and an off color image will paint the reputation of this site faster than any post. So if the graphic is questioinable (like the one with this decency standards post or the 4 fat chicks) you should probably post a link to it, rather than have it grace the main page.
Overall I think our audience are adults, but we have to understand that kids like football too and may stop by.
Lastly, I think we all want this to become one of the de facto sites for Seahawks news, like .NET, and we'd also like to think that maybe some of the news media and/or Seahawk employees/players my stop by too.
2. Disallow Words? Again, I think the SNL, MTV and/or TDS barometer should be our guide. In general, I think curse words should not be spelled out, but rather typed as spam-guists, i.e. @ss, sh!t, f*ck, etc. Granted, kids see these same "naughty" words in a John Grisham novel, but let's at least give the appearance of editing ourselves!
3. Actively Moderated? I say no. This needs to be a hobby/entertainment for all involved, and not become a job or task to anyone. EVeryone should be encourage to "call fouls" as they see them, either directly to the offender or to the entire site via Flooble or the Comments section. Certain people have been granted moderator privledges as they've exhibited the devotion to the Seahawks, interest in the site, technical savy and general responsibility that it warrants. (either that, or they're just Blue's favorites!) These site admins should feel comfortable to take down any post or content that's objectionable, but it shouldn't be solely their responsibility to police the site.
my main problem is when i get frustrated, annoyed at something...i tend to cuss more...if you knew me personally, you would hear something every two seconds...but on here i try to keep it minimal...its mainly when its about a division rival, the lack of respect, refs, or the Sonics' lack of respect, division rival, and refs...
so keeping it low...i can do, but i doubt i could cut it completely...maybe you could have a filter thingy similar to ESPN's, where it changes the cuss word to ****
as long as we dont have any racisim on here, i dont really care how indecent people are...
I think GOX hit it on the head...you have to have good judgement not to offend someone...i think joking around is fine...
eliminating some of the jokes would kill off such brilliant posts like the whole Cardinals are transexuals things...
if this site gets too serious, im gone...so as long as the free speech, and joking is permitted, I really have no problems
The point I agree with the most (although I agree with almost all of them) is the link to pages that some might find offensive. I view the site at work, and don't want to be constantly looking over my shoulder to see who might see the naked shots.
I have to say though, it really isn't hard to keep any swearing to a minimum, and if our goal is to be taken seriously by more than just ourselves, we need to keep it to a minimum if we don't get rid of it outright. No insider or player is going to want to appear on a page where people are swearing left and right. It does nothing good for their image, or ours.
lol as much as i agree with the title of your imaginary post...i would NEVER do that...
on the internet, i tend to use sub-pissed off words...like pissed, screwed, butthole, crap...but once in awhile ill slip and say something
Bullshit is the most likely...but once in awhile ill say fuck the rams, and the such...
the refs are most likely the things i cuss about...i go nuts when they screw our teams, and they have made me paranoid, so i notice every little bad call they make...
I know you'd never break off a post like that, Payroll, I was just exaggerating to make a point. Oh wait, when it comes to the Rams, I guess that's not really an exaggeration!
I concur for the most part with alba, however I personally would like to add a couple things. I have been a long time visitor of the P-I baseball blog and used to enjoy it immensely, I no longer either enjoy it or visit often for a few reasons. 1. There are several morons there who insist on making eveerything personal, personal attacks on other bloggers, not on their opinions, (which I believe should be fair game) but on the bloggers themselves. It gets to the point that no longer is the discussion about baseball but rather about who is stupid and who is a big fat liar and who is a jerk etc... This sort of petty bickering has soured me on that site and I would hate to see that happen here. 2. Politics, ploitics, politics!!! I don't mind the occasional funny remark about a political views or the politicians themselves, not at all, but I DO mind when the topic becomes a heated argument about politics instead of what it ought to be about, in our case, Seattle Seahawks football. Again, I don't want to be a prude and I don't mind a few well aimed and funny remarks, but the topic of discussion should never turn to politics here, it's about football. 3. I agree that our target audience is mainly rabid (adult) Seahawks fans, but like alba, I also would like this site to enjoy a reputation for having fun while at the same time being a great place to find out about Seahawks news etc... and I think that there will be younger people who will find their way here eventually so we should bear that in mind. Having said that, Saturday Night Live has done alot of stuff revolving around racial and sexual as well as homosexual jokes. I don't really have a problem with some of that but we MUST be careful not to cross that line from funny into insulting or we will quickly despoil our hard earned reputation. 4. Even though I personally have placed numerous links to our articles on other sites, I don't want to see this place become littered with links to sites by people starting their own websites, etc...keep that sort of thing to a minimum. An occasional link here and there wouldn't bother me, but too many and I will begin to feel as if 12SS is being used to pimp other sites, so far this has yet to happen but as we grow rest assured it will. 5. Disrespect of privacy. Although Blogger makes it difficult, it is far from impossible to discover the real identity of individuals who post and or comment here, (I personally am not good enough with a computer to know how such things are done, only that they are). I have chosen to use my real name in my email address and to publish my email address, because I just don't care much and because I like to meet people so for myself privacy is really not an issue. For others however, privacy may in fact be a very big issue and we should do our best to insure that others privacy is always protected. If, for example, someone who always posted as buttmunch here, got into a personal conversation with someone who posted as sphincterboy and buttmunch inadvertently revealed to sphincterboy his real identity, it would be extremely uncouth for sphinterboy to unclench and reveal that identity. 6. Lastly, (and again I will use the P-I baseball site as an example of how not to do it), there are several idiots who literally post as "idiot" and "idiot2" etc... who think that it is the height of humor to drive everyone batty by mockingly parroting a certain blogger there (who shall remain nameless). While this may have been funny the first couple of times, these "idiots" have been so dedicated to idiocy that all humor has long ago worn off, (yet another reason I no longer go to that site except occasionally). This brand of humor runs something like this, I know that sphincterboy has a big thing for criticising the FO and every move the FO makes, so buttmunch takes it upon himself to parrot the things that sphincterboy says except in a more extreme and outlandish way. Thus by pretending to agree with an show honor to the statements made by sphincterboy, buttmunch is actually trying to highlight what he feels are stupid opinions. Trust me on this, it sounds funny, but it actually creates confusion and becomes as absurd as the name "idiot" implies. I would rather see heated debates of the topics and opinions expressed, directly than through such silly means. The "joke" wears thin very quickly, believe me.
I guess bottom line is, while I don't want to be a prude, and I cetainly don't want to stifle debate or even flat out dissagreement, I would just hope that the people who post here ESPECIALLY THE CONTRIBUTORS would maintain a modicum of decency and respect, while still having fun and being as outrageous as they want to be. I know that finding the balance between those two things seems to be impossible, but I do ont think it is. In truth, I feel as though we have already found precisely that balance in the three or so months that we have been up and running. This is due to the professionalism of all the contributors here and I expect that since this is the tone that we as a team have already set, it will be maintained without too much policing. I think that we have already set a very good tone for this blog, I like it the way it is, and I hope that each and every contributor will take notice of anyone trying to cross the boundaries of decency that we have set by7 example here, and will aply the pressure necessary to that individual to let them know that, that sort of behavior is frowned upon here. I know this is a bit rambling but I think you can get my point.
Sorry that was so bloody long, but I really used to have a lot of fun at the P-I baseball site and now it has become hard to enjoy because of a few "idiots" and a few people who would rather discuss sexuality, politics, or world views, than baseball. It's a real shame and I VERY much want to avoid that from happening here. Again, I like the tone that we as a group have already set here, we have policed ourselves well and yet we have still been funny and free to post what we wanted to. Freedom WITH responsibility, the best way to go.
1. Right on brother! The ST Seahawks fan forum is getting to be exactly how you describe the PI Baseball forum, and it would be a sad day on Seahawks Street to let this neighborhood fall into that kind of slum!
2. The old saying is to never discuss religion, sex or politics in polite company. While we don't need to stay away from these topics entirely, they need to be the seasoning of the meal, and not the meat and potatos.
3. The SNL thing is more of a guide. They do tend to get crude at times, but they do it with double-entendre and implied situations. I was more using it as a barometer for language.
4. I'm working on a revised Links page, where we can put these pointers to other relavent sites, however, I totally agree that this site needs to be about Content, and not become a portal to other sites. I also agree that we need to be judicious about how we post invitations on the other forums.
5. AMEN, AMEN, AMEN! Especially admins who have access to all contributor's email addresses. We need to use the reporter/priest/attorney privledge scenario and not reveal our sources, or divulge information given to us in privacy.
6. This goes to treating other commenters/commenters with respect. Differing opinions is what these sites are all about, but we need to disagree with the OPINION and not the PERSON. I would much rather see off color humor than personal attacks against each other.
THIS WILL BE ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT SHOULD FAN OF OTHER TEAMS WANDER IN.
Let's not allow this to drag the site down to personal attacks, even on fans of enemy teams. It's been my experience that if you want someone to go away, just ignore them. If you engage, they get exactly what the came for, which is a reason to post more garbage to the site.
I wouldn't consider anything you posted to be "prudish", but instead I'd consider it "prudent". Let this be a site for intellegent, sometimes funny, alway topical discussion/debate/disagreement on all things Seahawks, while respecting our fellow contributors and their opinions.
Thanks alba, I knew I could count on you to understand what it was that I was trying to express, in spite of the rambling somewhat incoherent form it took.
BTW, not even a chuckle at the spincterboy referrence?
Blue -
ReplyDeleteFirst, thank you for raising this topic for discussion before it becomes a problem. I think it'll be great to get everyone's input and see if we can reach some common ground.
While I think we need these standards and guidelines, I think they need to be very simply stated.
A. To quote Jim Rome, "Have a take and don't suck!"
B. To employ a guideline used by my college fraternity regarding pledging "you won't (shouldn't post) do anything you wouldn't do (post) in front of your mother"
C. If you don't think it would fly on late night Network TV (i.e. SLN, The Daily Show, MAD TV) it probably shouldn't be posted.
I am all for free speech and I am all for self-policing forums too, but you make a good point that if things get out of hand, the damage is usually already done before peers can pipe up and correct the problem.
So to directly answer your questions:
1. Target Audience: our main target audience is undoubtedly rabid Seahawks fans such as ourselves. That being said, everyone has different hot buttons, be it abjectifying women, bashing gays/lesbians, racial/ethnic slurs, etc. However, some stuff is just too funny to pass up.
I think we need to use Saturday Night Live, MAD TV and/or The Daily Show as our barometer. If it sounds like something you'd see here, then go for it. If it would be too racy for those shows, it probably should be omitted.
Same goes for the graphics used with your posts. Remember that a picture is worth 1000 words, and an off color image will paint the reputation of this site faster than any post. So if the graphic is questioinable (like the one with this decency standards post or the 4 fat chicks) you should probably post a link to it, rather than have it grace the main page.
Overall I think our audience are adults, but we have to understand that kids like football too and may stop by.
Lastly, I think we all want this to become one of the de facto sites for Seahawks news, like .NET, and we'd also like to think that maybe some of the news media and/or Seahawk employees/players my stop by too.
2. Disallow Words? Again, I think the SNL, MTV and/or TDS barometer should be our guide. In general, I think curse words should not be spelled out, but rather typed as spam-guists, i.e. @ss, sh!t, f*ck, etc. Granted, kids see these same "naughty" words in a John Grisham novel, but let's at least give the appearance of editing ourselves!
3. Actively Moderated? I say no. This needs to be a hobby/entertainment for all involved, and not become a job or task to anyone. EVeryone should be encourage to "call fouls" as they see them, either directly to the offender or to the entire site via Flooble or the Comments section. Certain people have been granted moderator privledges as they've exhibited the devotion to the Seahawks, interest in the site, technical savy and general responsibility that it warrants. (either that, or they're just Blue's favorites!) These site admins should feel comfortable to take down any post or content that's objectionable, but it shouldn't be solely their responsibility to police the site.
my main problem is when i get frustrated, annoyed at something...i tend to cuss more...if you knew me personally, you would hear something every two seconds...but on here i try to keep it minimal...its mainly when its about a division rival, the lack of respect, refs, or the Sonics' lack of respect, division rival, and refs...
ReplyDeleteso keeping it low...i can do, but i doubt i could cut it completely...maybe you could have a filter thingy similar to ESPN's, where it changes the cuss word to ****
as long as we dont have any racisim on here, i dont really care how indecent people are...
I think GOX hit it on the head...you have to have good judgement not to offend someone...i think joking around is fine...
eliminating some of the jokes would kill off such brilliant posts like the whole Cardinals are transexuals things...
if this site gets too serious, im gone...so as long as the free speech, and joking is permitted, I really have no problems
The point I agree with the most (although I agree with almost all of them) is the link to pages that some might find offensive. I view the site at work, and don't want to be constantly looking over my shoulder to see who might see the naked shots.
ReplyDeleteI have to say though, it really isn't hard to keep any swearing to a minimum, and if our goal is to be taken seriously by more than just ourselves, we need to keep it to a minimum if we don't get rid of it outright. No insider or player is going to want to appear on a page where people are swearing left and right. It does nothing good for their image, or ours.
lol as much as i agree with the title of your imaginary post...i would NEVER do that...
ReplyDeleteon the internet, i tend to use sub-pissed off words...like pissed, screwed, butthole, crap...but once in awhile ill slip and say something
Bullshit is the most likely...but once in awhile ill say fuck the rams, and the such...
the refs are most likely the things i cuss about...i go nuts when they screw our teams, and they have made me paranoid, so i notice every little bad call they make...
I know you'd never break off a post like that, Payroll, I was just exaggerating to make a point. Oh wait, when it comes to the Rams, I guess that's not really an exaggeration!
ReplyDeletePosted by albaNY Hawker
I concur for the most part with alba, however I personally would like to add a couple things.
ReplyDeleteI have been a long time visitor of the P-I baseball blog and used to enjoy it immensely, I no longer either enjoy it or visit often for a few reasons.
1. There are several morons there who insist on making eveerything personal, personal attacks on other bloggers, not on their opinions, (which I believe should be fair game) but on the bloggers themselves. It gets to the point that no longer is the discussion about baseball but rather about who is stupid and who is a big fat liar and who is a jerk etc... This sort of petty bickering has soured me on that site and I would hate to see that happen here.
2. Politics, ploitics, politics!!! I don't mind the occasional funny remark about a political views or the politicians themselves, not at all, but I DO mind when the topic becomes a heated argument about politics instead of what it ought to be about, in our case, Seattle Seahawks football. Again, I don't want to be a prude and I don't mind a few well aimed and funny remarks, but the topic of discussion should never turn to politics here, it's about football.
3. I agree that our target audience is mainly rabid (adult) Seahawks fans, but like alba, I also would like this site to enjoy a reputation for having fun while at the same time being a great place to find out about Seahawks news etc... and I think that there will be younger people who will find their way here eventually so we should bear that in mind.
Having said that, Saturday Night Live has done alot of stuff revolving around racial and sexual as well as homosexual jokes. I don't really have a problem with some of that but we MUST be careful not to cross that line from funny into insulting or we will quickly despoil our hard earned reputation.
4. Even though I personally have placed numerous links to our articles on other sites, I don't want to see this place become littered with links to sites by people starting their own websites, etc...keep that sort of thing to a minimum. An occasional link here and there wouldn't bother me, but too many and I will begin to feel as if 12SS is being used to pimp other sites, so far this has yet to happen but as we grow rest assured it will.
5. Disrespect of privacy. Although Blogger makes it difficult, it is far from impossible to discover the real identity of individuals who post and or comment here, (I personally am not good enough with a computer to know how such things are done, only that they are). I have chosen to use my real name in my email address and to publish my email address, because I just don't care much and because I like to meet people so for myself privacy is really not an issue. For others however, privacy may in fact be a very big issue and we should do our best to insure that others privacy is always protected. If, for example, someone who always posted as buttmunch here, got into a personal conversation with someone who posted as sphincterboy and buttmunch inadvertently revealed to sphincterboy his real identity, it would be extremely uncouth for sphinterboy to unclench and reveal that identity.
6. Lastly, (and again I will use the P-I baseball site as an example of how not to do it), there are several idiots who literally post as "idiot" and "idiot2" etc... who think that it is the height of humor to drive everyone batty by mockingly parroting a certain blogger there (who shall remain nameless). While this may have been funny the first couple of times, these "idiots" have been so dedicated to idiocy that all humor has long ago worn off, (yet another reason I no longer go to that site except occasionally). This brand of humor runs something like this, I know that sphincterboy has a big thing for criticising the FO and every move the FO makes, so buttmunch takes it upon himself to parrot the things that sphincterboy says except in a more extreme and outlandish way. Thus by pretending to agree with an show honor to the statements made by sphincterboy, buttmunch is actually trying to highlight what he feels are stupid opinions. Trust me on this, it sounds funny, but it actually creates confusion and becomes as absurd as the name "idiot" implies. I would rather see heated debates of the topics and opinions expressed, directly than through such silly means. The "joke" wears thin very quickly, believe me.
I guess bottom line is, while I don't want to be a prude, and I cetainly don't want to stifle debate or even flat out dissagreement, I would just hope that the people who post here ESPECIALLY THE CONTRIBUTORS would maintain a modicum of decency and respect, while still having fun and being as outrageous as they want to be. I know that finding the balance between those two things seems to be impossible, but I do ont think it is. In truth, I feel as though we have already found precisely that balance in the three or so months that we have been up and running. This is due to the professionalism of all the contributors here and I expect that since this is the tone that we as a team have already set, it will be maintained without too much policing. I think that we have already set a very good tone for this blog, I like it the way it is, and I hope that each and every contributor will take notice of anyone trying to cross the boundaries of decency that we have set by7 example here, and will aply the pressure necessary to that individual to let them know that, that sort of behavior is frowned upon here. I know this is a bit rambling but I think you can get my point.
Posted by monkey
Sorry that was so bloody long, but I really used to have a lot of fun at the P-I baseball site and now it has become hard to enjoy because of a few "idiots" and a few people who would rather discuss sexuality, politics, or world views, than baseball. It's a real shame and I VERY much want to avoid that from happening here. Again, I like the tone that we as a group have already set here, we have policed ourselves well and yet we have still been funny and free to post what we wanted to. Freedom WITH responsibility, the best way to go.
ReplyDeleteMonkey -
ReplyDelete1. Right on brother! The ST Seahawks fan forum is getting to be exactly how you describe the PI Baseball forum, and it would be a sad day on Seahawks Street to let this neighborhood fall into that kind of slum!
2. The old saying is to never discuss religion, sex or politics in polite company. While we don't need to stay away from these topics entirely, they need to be the seasoning of the meal, and not the meat and potatos.
3. The SNL thing is more of a guide. They do tend to get crude at times, but they do it with double-entendre and implied situations. I was more using it as a barometer for language.
4. I'm working on a revised Links page, where we can put these pointers to other relavent sites, however, I totally agree that this site needs to be about Content, and not become a portal to other sites. I also agree that we need to be judicious about how we post invitations on the other forums.
5. AMEN, AMEN, AMEN! Especially admins who have access to all contributor's email addresses. We need to use the reporter/priest/attorney privledge scenario and not reveal our sources, or divulge information given to us in privacy.
6. This goes to treating other commenters/commenters with respect. Differing opinions is what these sites are all about, but we need to disagree with the OPINION and not the PERSON. I would much rather see off color humor than personal attacks against each other.
THIS WILL BE ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT SHOULD FAN OF OTHER TEAMS WANDER IN.
Let's not allow this to drag the site down to personal attacks, even on fans of enemy teams. It's been my experience that if you want someone to go away, just ignore them. If you engage, they get exactly what the came for, which is a reason to post more garbage to the site.
I wouldn't consider anything you posted to be "prudish", but instead I'd consider it "prudent". Let this be a site for intellegent, sometimes funny, alway topical discussion/debate/disagreement on all things Seahawks, while respecting our fellow contributors and their opinions.
Thanks alba, I knew I could count on you to understand what it was that I was trying to express, in spite of the rambling somewhat incoherent form it took.
ReplyDeleteBTW, not even a chuckle at the spincterboy referrence?