I snagged the picture (which is funny, I don't care who you are) from .net.Here is the link to the thread at .net where the picture is from and which inspired me to write my own take on Ray Rhodes defense.
I know that this has been discussed among Seahawk faithful ad nauseum, but I ran across a statement from Andre Dyson, at Seahawks.com which was intended to put me at ease about how quickly Dyson is picking up the defense, but only caused me heartburn, thinking about how simplistic Rhodes defense is.
From Seahawks.com, (click the external link to see the entire story)
"Another defender, newcomer Andre Dyson, is finding it easy to settle into defensive coordinator Ray Rhodes' scheme.
"I'm getting better knowing the system," says the fifth-year cornerback. "It's a lot easier than the system I came from (in Tennessee). There were a lot of checks, a lot of different defenses. Here you just play, you beat the person in front of you. No tricks, no gadgets, you got the man in front of you and you just beat him."
Let me say that again so you all get what he said, he said that in Tennesee, there were checks and different defenses, which there aren't here, and he said that there are no tricks, no gadgets. Really? Seriously? Now I am frightened!
In all seriousness, the cynical side of me wants very badly to look at that statement and say "well this sure explains a lot! This explains why we start out so hot defensively, but then over time, when offenses have a chance to see us on film or any little injury happens, which lessens our overall talent on defense, we go cold."
I realize that I am prone to overreacting to statements, but to me this is simply confirmation of something I had already suspected, (if not believed) to be the case with Ray Rhodes defense. What do you folks think? Am I overreacting, or is this yet more proof that Rhodes defensive schemes leave much to be desired, that his schemes are just simply too basic and simple for the NFL?
BTW, in that picture, I am wondering what that guy way over on the right is doing, the one who is circled but apparently has no direction to retreat in. Maybe that's the trick part of Rhodes play?
ReplyDeletei remember this picture...
ReplyDeletehere are my top 5 things to monitor this offseason/and regular season:
5. Holmgren's Health
4. Lack of KR or PR threat
3. Dropped Passes
2. Ray Rhodes
1. Pass Rush
im as worried as everyone else about him...im more uncertain then anything...was it the injuries? was it Rhodes? was it chemistry? was it mentality? Injuries are unavoidable, but of the remaining three Rhodes is the question mark...mentality has been positive so far, and the chemistry is being built...so thats 2/4 we have worked on
so if the problem laid among those 2 things, we should be fine...injuries is obvious, so that leaves Rhodes...and we wont know unless the other 3 problems are fixed (depth helps the injuries)
What is he doing in the picture?
ReplyDeleteHe's blitzing.
Really, I like the scheme of Rhodes, training the players to react decisively with finely honed instincts, except for one thing: The way he telegraphs the blitz. There really is no question for the offense's blocking scheme.
Even when he throws in a zone blitz and the DE is in pass coverage, it is easy to read, which actually puts the defense to a disadvantage. The idea behind a zone blitz is to put unusual players into coverage and pass rush, in order to surprise the blockers and gain an advantage on the play. The problem is that when it fails to surprise, you actually end up with players stuck in a mismatch and puts the team at a competitive disadvantage. I saw this stuation routinely last season.
Don't get me wrong, I like Rhodes and his scheme, I just don't care for the worthless blitzing techniques. Everybody and their dog can see when it's coming.
That is some funny stuff.
ReplyDeleteThat guy is Walter Jones, the only one holding his ground.
Sheesh, look at the position...;']
Actually that player would have to b either Dyson or Trufant, remember this is a Rhodes defensive play? However, I would like to think that no matter how bad our offense could get this season, that Jones would indeed hold the line and never retreat.
ReplyDeleteFrom a technical standpoint, the player who is not retreating is known as the "Outside Circle Guy". For more information, click here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sportspot.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=3993
Posted by dfarrar777
Just to add nausium, I have said all along that the key to Ray's defense (since he's been a defensive coordinator) is getting the players that have speed, brains and skill. Then allowing them to play to their skills, now thus far it's been a matter of getting his players in place to make the defense work, and when you start talking about the more intricate and complicated schemes you start confusing young players which we are up to our ears in.
ReplyDeleteSo I guess my point is that to this point we've not had the players available to make the defense work. But now that our younger players are now in the season when theri skills should be showing through we should be ready to make the defense that Ray runs work.
Ray's defenses have worked in every other defense he's built so why not here.....the problem with most detractors is that they do not understand the learning curve involved in getting a scheme like his working.
But as usual patience is not something fans in Seattle have a lot of(understandably), but patience is, as they say, a virtue, and I feel strongly that the patience will pay off this season.
Just as with Mike's offense and the time it took to get it put together and running, the same goes for defense. Remember we have also completely re-built the defense just as we did the offense. And I think that Ray's perhaps one of the best judges of defensive talent going.
So patience my bretheren, the time has come for this team to come together as one unit and succeed.
Now....WHO WANTS KOOL-AID?!?!?? :D
Posted by vinnyhawkalugi
I thought that conversation with Rhodes sounded familiar!
ReplyDeleteJohn Levesque and Ray Rhodes
Not to be a jerk Vin, but did you read the article? Cuz this "the problem with most detractors is that they do not understand the learning curve involved in getting a scheme like his working." Is exactly opposite of what Dyson said.
ReplyDeleteThere is no learning curve, it's just a matter of having better talent. Sorry Vin I like the kool aid but this batch smells funny.
Vin is exactly right up to the learning curve part, unless what he was trying to say is that the players may have to "unlearn" old tendencies. Then I would say he is dead on. And if old Planet Melon himself likes it, then I like it too.
ReplyDeleteI think "you got the man in front of you and you just beat him " is the way to play, as long as you can. Knowing your assignment(s) and executing are the basis for this D, last year they couldn't due to lack of talent/experience, which was due to injuries. The only loss of talent this year that wasn't directly offset was Simmons, but DD Lewis is the guy there now, and most including me believe he can fill that gap. Our D should be as good as early last year, and we have better, more talented and more experience depth. I ain't skeered of Ray Rhodes, if he has talent, he is effective.
As far as blitzing, agree, if it is obvious a blitz is coming its easier to defend. But another symptom of ineffecting blitzing is ineffective base pass rush, interior rush being more important than DE rush. If we can get the bulls inside, then the blitz becomes more effective, obvious or not, just based on the amount of people available to block.
Monkey, if your Kool Aid smells funny, maybe Vin stirs it "Vacation" style? :-D
Posted by Josh from SC
I was mainly refereing to the learning curve of getting used toplaying at the NFL level, which as everyone knows is a factor in rookie development. And while Ray's defense would be simple to someone like Dyson who played in a much more complicated defense in Tenn, There is still a certain amout of learing to do.....such as reading and adjusting to offenses you've never seen before or reacting to a much fast and tougher game than played in practice and and in college.
ReplyDeleteRemember that we had a shit load of players starting in games on defense last year that have never played in a live NFL game, against very very good opponents.
So whether Dyson thinks there's a learning curve in compasison to where he played previously, there is, IMO, still a lot to be learned even in a simple defensive scheme like Rays....otherwise why did we have so many players out of position and taking bad angles to the ball and missing sooooo many tackles? That's not Ray that's the lack of knowledge of the players. And the lack of experience in this so called 'simple' defense.
All I'm trying to say is that if the players are good and know how to read and react to offenses and and offensive adjustments then Ray's defense would work just fine...it doesn't need to be intricate and full of tricks....I'd also like to ask, how well did Tennessee's defense fare last season? They were ranked 27th in the league, we were ranked 26th far less starters playing.
So I'm not sold on your' evaluation of Ray and whether his style of defense works.....this ain't college. If you ask me, in the Pros it's about the ability of the players not the tricks the D-Coordinator can come up with...if you don't have the players you can't do much no matter what you try. And I disagree whole heartedly with anyone that says any other Coordinator could have done any better with the players Ray had to work with by mid-season.
Posted by vinnyhawkalugi
Josh, you are so much better at making a point, and I agree 100% and I forgot to mention the blitzing problem and you hit the nail on the head! No pass rush = no blitz. And since everyone here seems to agree that we had poor to no pass rush last season it just figures that we'd be lousy at blitzing, no matter how Ray or any other Defensive Coordinator dressed it up. It's not that teams were easily reading the blitzes, it's that we couldn't apply enough pressure to make it work.
ReplyDeleteBut if Sharper, Fisher, Tubbs and our other DT(to be determined later) are the improvement that I think they are that problem should be eliminated and therefore we should be able to blitz more effectively and therefore out DBs should be far more effect as well.
If I'm way off on this analysis please point me in the right direction.....but if I'm right then the problem is not Ray's schemes it's the lack of proper excution by the inexperienced players on the field last season.
Like I said, I doubt 'any' D Coordiantor in the league could have been successful with the unit we fielded last year.
Posted by vinnyhawkalugi
and that should say 'no base pass rush' not 'no pass rush', me type to fastly sometimes. And words get lefted out. :D
ReplyDeleteThe guy on the right is Chad Brown. He is not retreating, he is on the ground because he just broke his leg.
ReplyDeletePosted by check
Vin,
ReplyDeletegiven your more detailed answer, I will say that at least in part I agree with what you just said and that you raise some excellent points. You said that given the injuries and given the overall inesperience no other coordintor could have done better. Perhaps you are right, a more complex style may have only confused the players more. On the other hand, perhaps a more complex style, may have confused an offense or two, which is something that I think Rhodes schemes utterly lack, they are not innovative, nor do they adjust well to adversity. If Rhodes has talent he can win, true enough, but a truly great coach can find inovative ways to get more out of a lesser talented team. That, IMHO is what seperates a good or average coach from the great ones. Rhodes can win with talent and no injuries, but guess what? So can every single defensive coordinator in the NFL! The real question is can he win facing adversity? So far the evidence, as indicated by our defensive rankings, says no.
While you raise very good points, some of which I agree with Vin, I will have to respectfully disagree with you (and apparently Josh as well) on this one. Rhodes can do fine, IF and only IF everything goes just right and he has great talent. But that's not really saying much is it?
Last year there seemed to be a serious domino effect. The D started out good (probably not as good as the stats indicate, given the opponents, but definitely soild). Then as injuries started to happen, the D got worse and worse. They tried to compensate, and made thigs worse, getting out of position trying to make a play, only to get burned instead. Rhodes seems to have tried to reign things in by making everyone play their position and stay at home - hence the remark someone quoted a while back about him instructing the CB's not to break until the ball was in the air. He oversimplified everything to try and prevent catastrohic failures.
ReplyDeleteThe pass rush disappeared entirely. In the first few games, the pass rush worked with all the starters in, there was a synergy, each contributing to the success of the other. Take one guy out, and the synergy is lost, and suddenly the O-line that had been overwhelmed with too many good rushers to keep the all out, could focus on the remaining good rushers and beat them. Similar to the reason a blitz is effective - adding that one wildcard of a blitzer can create more than one hole in the O-line, and even collapse it entirely. Similarly having just enough decent rushers can lead to constant pressure on the QB. Loose one of those decent rushers, and suddenly the QB has all day to throw.
Then without a pash rush, with guys playing out of position and giving up big, demoralizing plays, what started as a machine firing on all cylinders suddenly turned into Honda slipping it's timing chain. One part stretched too much, and the entire engine gets fried. Catastrophic failure due to one broken ankle.
The key to fixing that is I think what the team has been doing. Getting good solid depth so when one guy goes down, you can replace him without catastrophe. At least that's why I think the defense will be in the top 10 this year. Even if we get injuries like last year, we've picked up enough good backups to keep things in sync.
Posted by Highwater
Well I certainly hope you guys who think all the problems will be solved now that we've added depth are right! We shall see.
ReplyDeleteOne quick point highwater, you said "He oversimplified everything to try and prevent catastrohic failures." This may be true, but look at the results! It certainly did not work. My point is, instead of oversimplifying, get a little creative, especially when the talent level isn't what you would like. Just line up and beat your guy DOESNT WORK WHEN YOU'RE NOT TALENTED ENOUGH TO DO THAT!! That's the whole point, if the talent isn't there then you need to get creative. Anyone can win by just lining up and beating your guy, if your guys are better than theirs. BUt what if they're not? What if due to injuries, your team is now playing at less than 100% strength? Then you need to get creative. But Rhodes does the exact opposite which only compunds the problem.
Man, I sure do sound cynical compared to last year! LOL! What happened to the Kool Aid drinking monkey who proudly announced to all that would listen that for the first time in his life he was picking the Hawks to go to the Super Bowl? Come to think of it, maybe that's what happened, after 29 years of rooting for this team, I finally stepped out on the ledge and I got burned good. No more over-optimism for me! From now on I ride the fence! 10-6 and one playoff win, that's my pick and I am sticking to it! I put my hand on the stove top, and learned!
ReplyDeleteWTF kind of Seahawk fan are you!!! This type of attitude shouldn't be starting in the offseason (I usually wait until about week 5). Hope springs (and summers) eternal. Are the Fargo winters messing with you? Is it the proximity to StL? Somebody, anybody, 90cc's of kool aid, stat, we got a monkey going bananas and ape-shit! Dangerous combination...
ReplyDeletePosted by Josh from SC
LOL!
ReplyDeletemonkey will probably end up being the LEAST disappointed Seahawk fan at the end of the year...
ReplyDeleteso underrate us all you want...people did that with the Sonics...and well...
Man would I love that ADP! I mean, I realize that everyone here bleeds blue and (Darker blue? Steel gray?) green, but with me this has been a psychosis for as long as I can remember.
ReplyDeleteHell, when I joined the Navy, I requeted to be stationed in Seattle just to go see Seahawks games. I may be the only guy here, who actually moved across country just to watch the Seahawks. People long ago stopped asking what I want for Christmas, birthdays etc...they know full well what I want, shirts, hats, footballs, football cards; anything thing that says Seattle Seahawks or even remotely resembles the Seahawks colors, old or new. Still though, after 29 years of waiting I have become perhaps a little bit bitter, (though that will change when the preseason get here I am sure). You know the saying, once bitten twice shy, well I am 29 times bitten. Thankfully I am still not all that shy however as only last year I stuck my head into the prediction noose and got strangled.
I sure hope you're right ADP! Only problem is, if the Hawks ever do win the big game, I will be dead flat broke the following morning, from having purchased any and all paraphenalia relating to the Hawks big win.
lol...
ReplyDeleteyou're right, you're the only one here who moved across the country for the Seahawks...
...for now...; )
Posted by ADP
Monkey said:
ReplyDeleteThat's the whole point, if the talent isn't there then you need to get creative.
That's true to a point. However, if the problem is deemed to be created by players loosing the mental battle due to lack of experience, rather then just the physical battle, then one solution is to try would be simplifying things. And if the players couldn't handle the basic stuff, then Rhodes would have no confidence that they could handle a more complicated scheme. Maybe the D would have been even WORSE if he'd gotten fancy with it, with more screw-ups, blown coverages, missed tackles, and failed blitzes. I know it's hard to imagine....
And I'm not necessarily saying that Rhodes made the right choice, either, of keeping things simple and just focusing on each guy beating their man. Obviously that didn't work all that well.
But really, my main point was that the good D we saw briefly last year was due to a situation where the sum was greater than the parts - a synergy - so that loosing one key player had a much bigger effect on the team as a whole than would normally be expected. Those few games where Okeafor and Wistrom both played, the line was exponentially better. When Simmons and Brown both played, the LB's were exponentially better.
Posted by Highwater
" However, if the problem is deemed to be created by players loosing the mental battle due to lack of experience, rather then just the physical battle, then one solution is to try would be simplifying things."
ReplyDeleteGood point Highwater, however, if that's true then what we had last season was less of a problem with players simply getting overwhelmed physically and talent wise and more of a mental problem. Considering the guys at LB who are most applicable to this discussion, I have a very difficult time buying that. Kas for instance, the knock against him has never been a lack of smarts or understanding the game or Rhodes scheme, but rather he simply isn't all that talented. Same can be said of most of the backups at LB. I just can't see a Harvard grad having a difficult time learning Ray Rhodes system, which even to an outsider like me, looks extremely predictable and basic. The guys who replaced Brown and Simmons and Huff or whoever, like Niko Koutouvides or Kas, aren't the kind of guys who have a hard time understanding the system, the proof is that this year, our new guys are cracking jokes about picking it up from them.
No, I am convinced that Rhodes is simply an average coach and nothing more, he can win with talent, but with problems, he struggles.
One last thing, has he ever run a more complex scheme anywhere he has been? No. But he has fielded teams which had more and which had less talent than what we had last season, and his defenses rankings are exactly in line with that. With good defenses he has historically done OK, with lesser Defenses, he has performed badly. Hell, I could coach a great team, that doesn't make me a good coach!
wheres Dick Cheney when you need him...
ReplyDeletePosted by ADP
Actually Kaz's biggest knock is he over-plays, he's usually trying to out think the offense and winds up out of position. He's got a great motor but that same motor has him racing past the play in many instances, which is why he's not and never will be a defensive starter. IMO the reason he's so affective on STs is that he has time to see the play developing, where as the plays at the line of scrimmage move faster than he can adjust to.
ReplyDeleteAnd while I agree that Ray may be an avereage coach, he is however a great unit 'builder' and once he gets his players in place this defense will take off, it's no different than all the changes made by Mike resulting in acouple of years of growing pains....defense is not just a matter of going out and playing...it's understanding offenses, studying players and teams. All things that young players must develope. Even great rookies have a growing pain season. Very few come in and Pro Bowl it right off the bat....And I'd like to point out that Boulwar and Lofa are two of Ray's boys. We all know how B-ware did, and Lofa's your' boy Monkey. So if you ask me Ray's doing a fine job.
And I have to ask the question....who would you replace him with? Who's a guaranteed improvement?
And I'd like to point out that those 'good' defenses you refered to were built by him.
Anyway, I'm done with this subject because as you and I like to say "We'll have to agree to disagree.".
As you said, "We'll just have to wait and see." though I don't know how you can be so hard on Ray after only a couple seasons.
Posted by vinnyhawkalugi
I am so hard on poor Ray after only a few seasons, because those seasons have stunk Vin. I think he's a mediocre coach. But I will gladly eat all the crow in the world if he proves me wrong.
ReplyDeleteFair enough bro.
ReplyDelete'Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie' waiting in the fridge. :D
Posted by vinnyhawkalugi
Monkey, it might not be all the way across the country, but I did buy season tickets while still living in Sioux Falls, and had things fall into place to move to the northwest. And still have the tickets, by the by.
ReplyDeleteI still believe I'm one of the farthest traveling non celebrity fans in the NFL.
Posted by PaulieP